The death of DEI, ESG and other like programs

[iris lilies]

I actually asked this because I DON'T understand how people see or don't see their own conditioning/past experiences play out in their/our daily lives - and I include myself in this. (yeah that's a pretty tortured sentence, sorry...) Sometimes I react to things and later wonder WHY I had the reaction I did.

I still don't understand why you felt someone who was not more talented or more productive than you should have a higher salary, just because they had one before and therefore "cost" more to entice into your facility. That, to me, makes no sense. obviously, ymmv.

Have you done any hiring? I hired many people over decades.

For each position, I had a salary range to work with. There is not a single standard salary amount for each position. The flexibility helped me hire in needed people.

I probably committed the crime of offering a lower salary to an incoming hire who was more qualified than someone else hired into the same position at a higher salary. This is how the real world works, hiring salaries are not a perfect science.

DEI goals didnt come into my hiring decisions, but it was often a conflict when hiring new people that their starting salaries didn’t exceed those of people who had already worked there for a while. That was my real problem as a hiring manager.

I believe you come from a public school background? From what I understand of that world, salary scales are regimented based on number of years of experience plus educational degrees and certificates. Concrete criteria with no flexibility. I may be wrong about that, but perhaps this is the lens in which you are viewing this.

And finally, salaries are negotiated in my (former) work world. I could have negotiated for more, but that salary represented a nice bump up for me, so I didn't and besides, I wanted the job. Salary was secondary.

edited to make sense, hooefully.

[Tybee]

I actually asked this because I DON'T understand how people see or don't see their own conditioning/past experiences play out in their/our daily lives - and I include myself in this. (yeah that's a pretty tortured sentence, sorry...) Sometimes I react to things and later wonder WHY I had the reaction I did.

I still don't understand why you felt someone who was not more talented or more productive than you should have a higher salary, just because they had one before and therefore "cost" more to entice into your facility. That, to me, makes no sense. obviously, ymmv.

Because women of our age were conditioned to feel we were not allowed in "men's spaces" and "take men's jobs", so we were supposed to be grateful for the crusts we were thrown.

[iris lilies]

Because women of our age were conditioned to feel we were not allowed in "men's spaces" and "take men's jobs", so we were supposed to be grateful for the crusts we were thrown.

yes, and it’s been argued that a continuation of female conditioning is that sex segregated spaces are only sex segregated for men, men can go anywhere. Women have to allow trans women into women’s spaces. More of the same conditioning?

[early morning]

Because women of our age were conditioned to feel we were not allowed in "men's spaces" and "take men's jobs", so we were supposed to be grateful for the crusts we were thrown.

Exactly this!

yes, and it’s been argued that a continuation of female conditioning is that sex segregated spaces are only sex segregated for men, men can go anywhere. Women have to allow trans women into women’s spaces.

I am not comfortable with the idea that public "spaces" need to be "segregated". I have no problem with transwomen being in any spaces. Or women. Or men. Or transmen. I get your freak about athletics, and agree that's an area where more study may be warranted, at least at the professional levels. But then I pretty much hate competitive sports. Games should be fun, confidence and leadership building experiences, not cut-throat, win-at-all-cost activities, especially for KIDS. But whatever, no one cares about my thoughts on that, lol.

[early morning]

Have you done any hiring? I hired many people over decades.

Well, I've been on hiring teams, where hiring decisions were by consensus. And no, where I taught was an educational portion of a state/county government entity. Much like you, we had salary ranges, which only lightly touched on educational level. Not exactly like the public schools. And no union. Previous salaries were not part of the salary equation. I know all places are different. I just believe that all people doing the same job at the same level of proficiency should be paid the same starting wages. Just because it's not the "real world" doesn't mean it isn't right.

[Tybee]

I believe that when I die, I will account for my sins against other people. And one sin I want to avoid as much as I can is demonizing vulnerable people, trans people, immigrants, sick veterans, working people who had jobs on January 20 and now do not have jobs because they are deemed worthless, a waste. People who for some inexplicable reason--well, it's not inexplicable, it is because they are vulnerable, and there is evil running the show.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[iris lilies]

Exactly this!

I am not comfortable with the idea that public "spaces" need to be "segregated". I have no problem with transwomen being in any spaces. Or women. Or men. Or transmen. I get your freak about athletics, and agree that's an area where more study may be warranted, at least at the professional levels. But then I pretty much hate competitive sports. Games should be fun, confidence and leadership building experiences, not cut-throat, win-at-all-cost activities, especially for KIDS. But whatever, no one cares about my thoughts on that, lol.

Here’s what I really think —today anyway, and allowing for future change of view—about trans women in women’s space:

Personally, I am fine with trans women in public spaces if those spaces are used for a short time. The public bathroom situation is the most common one people think of with trans women, That is a brief meetup space for people using it and is made semi private by stall doors. I think the hoopla made bt the Congress people over trans women using women’s bathrooms is silly and yes, hurtful.

Locker rooms and shower rooms, that is less of a brief encounter space and is more problematic. But probably I would be fine as long as I have some warning that there is an expectation of the space that I will share will contain 6’ 4” people with penises. I think there will be a gradual relaxation of nudity expectations as time goes by in the United States if we allow it.

All of this assumes honest and forthright intention to use the space as designed by all parties.

I emphasize “gradual” and this means I don’t want it forced like a bludgeon because some people really will be, to use everyone’s favorite term, not comfortable with it.

None of this addresses the serious problems of men invading women’s spaces for their long term use. If you believe the patriarchy keeps women down, if male domineering behavior is something to be guarded against, I think we have to pay attention to that in women’s sports, prisons, dating spaces, LeLeche League, sororities, women’s college dormitories, competitive sex-based scholarships, rape crises centers, etc. The trans activist agenda is giving permission for infiltration of strident natal men commandeering these spaces as their own.

Why these natal men are interested in this is not something I will spend my time on but I do not believe their agenda is friendly to women.

[iris lilies]

I believe that when I die, I will account for my sins against other people. And one sin I want to avoid as much as I can is demonizing vulnerable people, trans people, immigrants, sick veterans, working people who had jobs on January 20 and now do not have jobs because they are deemed worthless, a waste. People who for some inexplicable reason--well, it's not inexplicable, it is because they are vulnerable, and there is evil running the show.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

That is nice, to develop your own philosophy and strive to live it.

I am not as quick to toss around the concepts of “hate” and “evil”as you are,
and to malign priorities of my fellow simple living posters here as you are. But in our free society you and anyone else are free to do that.

to bring this back to the original thread topic, that really is the intent behind DEI goals. Bringing varied experiences, skills and point of view to any team is important. But simply checking boxes for race, sex, etc. is a superficial and lazy way to get there.

[catherine]

DEI is a way to solve for the reality that we all have biases and prejudices whether we recognize them or not. Frankly, I will admit that I have no clue what it's like to inhabit the skin of a person of color, for instance. I think reports like the one bae's organization did is a valid way to take the pulse of the community and not "guess" whether or not biases are influencing opportunity for underrepresented communities. It may seem like a forced and frivolous exercise, but I believe over time it will make equity a more natural reality. Kind of like concentrating on nothing but scales when you're learning to play the piano, but having it become something you don't even think about after enough practice and and self-awareness.

[early morning]

Catherine, that's a very eloquent explanation, thanks for that. I learn a lot from your posts!! Tybee, I think the standards you aspire to are laudable, and it would be a better world if people self-judged their own actions based on Christ's teachings - or even just the Golden Rule. I'm an atheist, but there is a lot to be learned from religious texts. It's difficult for me to understand people who say they are Christian but reject the teachings of Christ. I agree with you that evil is running the show at the moment.